United States Elections of 2012

TJ! wrote:

Jarrett wrote:

Adam wrote:

All the Americans on WrestlingClique are over the moon about his re-election. I don't know much but apparantly Mitt Romney was some major idiot.

Hardly. What I don't understand is how people treated Obama like he was a new candidate. He campaigned saying "I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that," but could never answer to "What have you done the last four years?" He called President Bush "irresponsible and unpatriotic" to increase the debt, yet Obama has nearly quadrupled it. He has spent more money in three years than Bush in 8 (and any president ever). Unemployment is higher (in fact he is the first president in 70 years to win re-election with the unemployment rate as high as it is). Taxes are going to be increased in 2013 to the extent that it will be the highest tax increase at a single time in American history. We fell under terrorist attack and he has done nothing in response; in fact, he told the American people a LIE. We now know that he knew all of the Libya details AS it happened but had his ambassador to the UN go on live TV and tell the American people a lie. Every aspect of the economy is worse and our foreign relations are too.

Romney? He has devoted his life to business and making it work. He founded Bain Capital in the 90s, a company that invested in huge American companies like Staples, Sports Authority, and Domino's Pizza. He made himself a millionaire while at Bain; the way I see it, if he could create so much economic success for himself (and he supplied thousands and thousands of jobs for others because of his businesses), why shouldn't we trust him to turn our national economy around? He took over the 2002 Olympics in Utah where he cleared up a scandal and turned irresponsible deficit and planning into an Olympic success story. He was elected Governor of Massachusetts: a state ranked highest in education during his tenure. A state in which taxes were cut nearly 20 times while he was Governor. A state where he turned their economy around by improving their debt and credit situation. A state where he was forced to work with 85% Democrats and still accomplished all of this. Obama in his first two years had to push and shove Obamacare through Congress without one Republican vote. The parties aren't working together, yet we had a candidate with a PROVEN track record of working with the other party and making money out of it.

America made a huge mistake.

What's Obama done in the past four years? Gave the country healthcare, got out of Iraq, killed bin Laden and Gaddafi, the Wall Street reform, the DREAM Act, repealed Don't Ask, Don't Tell, saved the automobile industry, put two women on the Supreme Court, Stem Cell Research is back, Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, stopped torture, the Stimulus package, and pegged student loans to a person's salary. But other than that, nothing at all. I'm not saying Obama's the greatest president ever but he's not the worst.

And you want to talk about Bain Capital? Romney never wanted to talk about it. Bain did leverage buyouts, more specifically they bought the company KB Toys for $305 million, putting up only $18 million of their own money. Then they restructured it and paid themselves $85 million, which could have been used by KB to actually do what it originally was supposed to. Then KB goes bankrupt and closes 500 stores which resulted in the loss of many jobs, and Bain Capital walked away with a 370% return on their investment. Sure they "invested" in many other companies but they fucked over plenty of others. Yeah he was good with money but government is not a business and shouldn't be run like one. Sure it worked on a state level but on a national one? Not a good idea.

1. The healthcare reform is terrible healthcare reform. The individual mandate is unacceptable. Who the hell is the government to tell me I have to buy into something or else I'm penalized for it? Aside from that, it raises taxes immensely - and where will that burden fall? On the middle class. The rest will fall on potential job creators.

2. In terms of Iraq, bin Laden, and Gaddafi: these are not Obama accomplishments. Our troop withdrawal (which, by the way, was later than promised) accomplished nothing of substance; besides, what part of the mission was actually accomplished under Obama? None of it really. bin Laden was killed by the Navy SEALs, not Obama. He should receive credit for giving the okay, but that really isn't anything to credit him for anyway: who wouldn't give it? Gaddafi was killed by Libyans, not Americans, so again, Obama himself played no role in that either.

3. Wall Street reform? You act as if Wall Street's better off. The stock markets are plummeting.

4. The DREAM Act is not an accomplishment at all, in fact what it really does it make illegal immigration more socially acceptable. If you want to be a citizen, you need to do it right and be legally here. Since the bill is more aimed at minors, I can understand why it is easier to argue in its favor, however I don't think we are in the position that we should be giving anyone the idea that we're going to provide assistance to any illegal immigrant; people are going to continue to illegally migrate here knowing that their kids will be fine. It sounds like a good thing, but our ways of dealing with this influx are not working and this isn't going to exactly help our cause.

5. Things like stem cell research are minor issues to me. If bringing it back is all you have to show for yourself, you don't deserve office. I supported Bush's stance on it during his presidency, being pro-life I have been hesitant on it.

6. Women on the Supreme Court: not an accomplishment for Obama. For the women themselves and the Court, yes, but their appointment by Obama, no.

7. Torture is one of those things were different interpretations equal different analyses. You may view waterboarding for example as a form of torture, I view it as enhanced interrogation for terrorists (or their supporters) who have posed threats in the form of high crimes against the US. Obama swore he'd close Guantanamo and it's still up and running. I am not going to say it should be closed, but he's inconsistent on his intentions.

8. The stimulus package was a complete failure if you look at the big picture. It spent, spent, spent, spent money we didn't have in hopes of reinvigorating the economy and look where we are right now. No better, in fact worse off. It didn't stimulate anything of significance. It didn't create any new jobs, but Obama is still all for this so called "stimulus." The Democrats spin its result by saying that it averted further economic catastrophe, and that for sure, we'll never know. But the fact is, we're far worse off here in 2012 than we were in 2008 and that is not negotiable. If Obama wants to promise to cut the deficit in half within his first time - goes ahead and spends more than any other president in attempts to accomplish this - and then ends up ramming us further into debt than we were before, it isn't going to work out.

As for Romney's business background, that's what you'll get if you listen a bit too much to Obama's campaigning or NBC for that matter, but if we want to discuss investments in businesses that end up failing, let's talk Solyndra. Of course, there are many more success stories out of those invested in at Bain but you're not going to hear about them because there is no reason for anybody to believe what Romney says about his own business life because Obama's always right about everything. When you say government isn't a business - that's true. But in how many ways are they similar? Tons. If a business is going into bankruptcy - we're heading down the fiscal cliff if Congress does not act NOW - something needs to be done to turn things around. You want to take in more money than you spend in either the government OR a business. You want to provide the goods/services needed by those you're providing to (in whichever case, either your people or your customers), but you need to balance your budget and make smart moves in doing so. None of this has been done. We haven't balanced the budget once under Obama. If you know how to run a business, and have proven that you can, I trust you more on a government level than a "community organizer" - whatever the hell that even is - out of Chicago.

I'm so happy I'm not American.

Jarrett wrote:

TJ! wrote:

Jarrett wrote:

Adam wrote:

All the Americans on WrestlingClique are over the moon about his re-election. I don't know much but apparantly Mitt Romney was some major idiot.

Hardly. What I don't understand is how people treated Obama like he was a new candidate. He campaigned saying "I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that," but could never answer to "What have you done the last four years?" He called President Bush "irresponsible and unpatriotic" to increase the debt, yet Obama has nearly quadrupled it. He has spent more money in three years than Bush in 8 (and any president ever). Unemployment is higher (in fact he is the first president in 70 years to win re-election with the unemployment rate as high as it is). Taxes are going to be increased in 2013 to the extent that it will be the highest tax increase at a single time in American history. We fell under terrorist attack and he has done nothing in response; in fact, he told the American people a LIE. We now know that he knew all of the Libya details AS it happened but had his ambassador to the UN go on live TV and tell the American people a lie. Every aspect of the economy is worse and our foreign relations are too.

Romney? He has devoted his life to business and making it work. He founded Bain Capital in the 90s, a company that invested in huge American companies like Staples, Sports Authority, and Domino's Pizza. He made himself a millionaire while at Bain; the way I see it, if he could create so much economic success for himself (and he supplied thousands and thousands of jobs for others because of his businesses), why shouldn't we trust him to turn our national economy around? He took over the 2002 Olympics in Utah where he cleared up a scandal and turned irresponsible deficit and planning into an Olympic success story. He was elected Governor of Massachusetts: a state ranked highest in education during his tenure. A state in which taxes were cut nearly 20 times while he was Governor. A state where he turned their economy around by improving their debt and credit situation. A state where he was forced to work with 85% Democrats and still accomplished all of this. Obama in his first two years had to push and shove Obamacare through Congress without one Republican vote. The parties aren't working together, yet we had a candidate with a PROVEN track record of working with the other party and making money out of it.

America made a huge mistake.

What's Obama done in the past four years? Gave the country healthcare, got out of Iraq, killed bin Laden and Gaddafi, the Wall Street reform, the DREAM Act, repealed Don't Ask, Don't Tell, saved the automobile industry, put two women on the Supreme Court, Stem Cell Research is back, Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, stopped torture, the Stimulus package, and pegged student loans to a person's salary. But other than that, nothing at all. I'm not saying Obama's the greatest president ever but he's not the worst.

And you want to talk about Bain Capital? Romney never wanted to talk about it. Bain did leverage buyouts, more specifically they bought the company KB Toys for $305 million, putting up only $18 million of their own money. Then they restructured it and paid themselves $85 million, which could have been used by KB to actually do what it originally was supposed to. Then KB goes bankrupt and closes 500 stores which resulted in the loss of many jobs, and Bain Capital walked away with a 370% return on their investment. Sure they "invested" in many other companies but they fucked over plenty of others. Yeah he was good with money but government is not a business and shouldn't be run like one. Sure it worked on a state level but on a national one? Not a good idea.

1. The healthcare reform is terrible healthcare reform. The individual mandate is unacceptable. Who the hell is the government to tell me I have to buy into something or else I'm penalized for it? Aside from that, it raises taxes immensely - and where will that burden fall? On the middle class. The rest will fall on potential job creators.

2. In terms of Iraq, bin Laden, and Gaddafi: these are not Obama accomplishments. Our troop withdrawal (which, by the way, was later than promised) accomplished nothing of substance; besides, what part of the mission was actually accomplished under Obama? None of it really. bin Laden was killed by the Navy SEALs, not Obama. He should receive credit for giving the okay, but that really isn't anything to credit him for anyway: who wouldn't give it? Gaddafi was killed by Libyans, not Americans, so again, Obama himself played no role in that either.

3. Wall Street reform? You act as if Wall Street's better off. The stock markets are plummeting.

4. The DREAM Act is not an accomplishment at all, in fact what it really does it make illegal immigration more socially acceptable. If you want to be a citizen, you need to do it right and be legally here. Since the bill is more aimed at minors, I can understand why it is easier to argue in its favor, however I don't think we are in the position that we should be giving anyone the idea that we're going to provide assistance to any illegal immigrant; people are going to continue to illegally migrate here knowing that their kids will be fine. It sounds like a good thing, but our ways of dealing with this influx are not working and this isn't going to exactly help our cause.

5. Things like stem cell research are minor issues to me. If bringing it back is all you have to show for yourself, you don't deserve office. I supported Bush's stance on it during his presidency, being pro-life I have been hesitant on it.

6. Women on the Supreme Court: not an accomplishment for Obama. For the women themselves and the Court, yes, but their appointment by Obama, no.

7. Torture is one of those things were different interpretations equal different analyses. You may view waterboarding for example as a form of torture, I view it as enhanced interrogation for terrorists (or their supporters) who have posed threats in the form of high crimes against the US. Obama swore he'd close Guantanamo and it's still up and running. I am not going to say it should be closed, but he's inconsistent on his intentions.

8. The stimulus package was a complete failure if you look at the big picture. It spent, spent, spent, spent money we didn't have in hopes of reinvigorating the economy and look where we are right now. No better, in fact worse off. It didn't stimulate anything of significance. It didn't create any new jobs, but Obama is still all for this so called "stimulus." The Democrats spin its result by saying that it averted further economic catastrophe, and that for sure, we'll never know. But the fact is, we're far worse off here in 2012 than we were in 2008 and that is not negotiable. If Obama wants to promise to cut the deficit in half within his first time - goes ahead and spends more than any other president in attempts to accomplish this - and then ends up ramming us further into debt than we were before, it isn't going to work out.

As for Romney's business background, that's what you'll get if you listen a bit too much to Obama's campaigning or NBC for that matter, but if we want to discuss investments in businesses that end up failing, let's talk Solyndra. Of course, there are many more success stories out of those invested in at Bain but you're not going to hear about them because there is no reason for anybody to believe what Romney says about his own business life because Obama's always right about everything. When you say government isn't a business - that's true. But in how many ways are they similar? Tons. If a business is going into bankruptcy - we're heading down the fiscal cliff if Congress does not act NOW - something needs to be done to turn things around. You want to take in more money than you spend in either the government OR a business. You want to provide the goods/services needed by those you're providing to (in whichever case, either your people or your customers), but you need to balance your budget and make smart moves in doing so. None of this has been done. We haven't balanced the budget once under Obama. If you know how to run a business, and have proven that you can, I trust you more on a government level than a "community organizer" - whatever the hell that even is - out of Chicago.

1. So you don't believe that healthcare is a right that every person should have? Yeah, there's cons to it. There's cons to literally everything. It's not like Romney's voucher program was any better.

2. I seriously wonder how different your view would have been had it been any president that wasn't Obama who gave the orders. The fact of the matter is when it's written in the textbooks, bin Laden and Gaddafi's deaths happened when Obama was president. Had it been McCain then I would credit killing them to him. He gave the okay, he saw it happen, it was under his administration. No need to nitpick, he obviously didn't do it himself. And of course troop withdrawal happened later than he said it would, when the hell has a president ever actually said they were going to do something exactly when they promised it? These things take time and much work.

3. I will agree with you that the Wall Street reform hasn't been helping much but it was necessary. These guys helped fuck us over with the recession (although it was more of China's fault). Regulation was needed.

4. Illegal immigration is a real big issue. It's much easier to sit from your computer and say that we shouldn't be encouraging illegal immigration, but it is going to be beneficial to our economy in the long term. Over 800,000 kids are now free to actually gain an education and actually contribute something to society. Plus, in the last two years we've seen the fewest number of immigrants trying to cross our southern border in 40 years.

5. The fact of the matter is that stem-cell research is a good thing. It can help save endangered species, can treat terrible diseases like Parkinson's. It's a step forward, I've never understood how people can just oppose something so crucial to the advancement of saving lives.

6. Definitely an accomplishment. How many women have been on the Supreme Court? Only four. Two of which were added by Obama. The fact that there have been 112 justices and only four were women doesn't feel right to me.

7. Blame Congress for Guantanamo still being open. They barred Obama from from transferring any prisoners to the US and isn't even letting them stand trial.

8. Yeah we are



We're on two opposite ends of the spectrum, Jarrett. We're less likely to agree on anything than the Democrats and Republicans in power right now...